How old were you when they discovered you were deaf?
When I was 4 years old they found out I was deaf.
Before that they didn't know what was wrong.
It seems like it was a progressive loss.
I spoke a little bit but my sister wasn't talking yet.
So I was deaf with some hearing.
The audiometer reflected this loss.
My mother says I was a lively child.
I constructed my understanding of the world visually.
I had a visual interest in my surroundings.
As I lost my hearing I had to make a greater effort.
Are your parents hearing?
Yes both my parents are can hear, as can my older siblings.
My sister and I are deaf.
The two oldest were born Cáceres and we were born in Barcelona.
It could have been caused by the environment.
So how did you communicate?
With my parents I communicated verbally.
I don't have any memories of hearing
So I cannot compare my communication to that of
being a hearing person to that of a deaf person.
It was progressive.
The communication has always been visual and with gestures.
My sister had more difficulties.
I was often her interpreter.
If something wasn't understood, it was repeated.
My parents were very patient.
And sometimes I really tested them,
to see what their breaking point was.
People are not this sensitive.
They make faces and don't repeat things.
My parents did, and would look for other words,
and ways to explain it.
For example, changing the word "price" for "coins" so I could understand.
How did you discover Catalan Sign Language?
I signed with my sister, María del Mar.
But we didn't know we were signing.
We communicated visually with gestures,
signing out words and creating our own signs
to help us identify sounds...
We did not have the concept of a personal sign
but we created them according to different attributes:
mustache, face, woman, sister...
Even though we didn't use the proper sign for "sister"
but we had our own sign, which we created and agreed upon.
A homemade sign language?
Yes, an agreed upon homemade sign language.
We simply communicated the best we could.
And it worked. We understood each other.
We grew up together, we are only 18 months apart.
How did you learn Catalan Sign Language?
They switched María del Mar to the 'Purísima'.
Which was a better school for her.
In the beginning we both went.
But when the nuns heard that I spoke,
and when they saw I was integrated
in Arans, a special education school,
which was a private co-op,
they decided that the 'Purísima' was not the place for me.
And that's how the nuns sent me
to the regular neighborhood school.
Once a week I had a school share.
On Saturdays I would go to the 'Purísima'. Saturdays used to be a school day.
What would the ideal education for a deaf child look like?
It would depend on their hearing progress.
The school would need a class for deaf students
and one for the hearing.
Then they could all benefit from shared activities.
The deaf with some hearing could communicate orally
and it would be good for the others to be with the hearing.
Separated, but sharing moments together.
To reinforce their identity
because if we don't take care it will be affected.
The deaf in hearing classrooms
realize they miss information.
And they suffer for it.
They will learn to talk, but at what price?
They will be critisized for how they talk....
Learning but with a complex?
It is not a good experience.
On the other hand, if the child is with deaf peers
the child with have better self-esteem.
What is being taught is not the most important!
And without group communication
the children will not develop social skills.
Look for emotional balance.
When did you decide to become a teacher?
I'm not sure exactly.
But my mother said when I was around 7 years old.
Then I was sure I wanted to be a teacher.
I clearly remember at the Arans school
how the communication with the deaf was.
We understood each other with gestures.
But in exchange, with oral communication
with other deaf, it was not fluid.
It seemed like a weak communication system.
For the teachers
they children who did not speak were not intelligent.
Even if they signed,
I saw that they were intelligent.
The teachers said that I spoke well and that I was smart
But something wasn't right.
I can't put my finger on it.
Because it was so long ago.
I confuse my memories with present day.
I felt impotent.
I saw how the teachers couldn't explain themselves
but with gestures I understood perfectly.
I realized I could be a good teacher.
Is the ability to speak and think different?
Yes, many people who grow up speaking
see that their cognitive development is different.
You may find deaf students who speak very well
but have difficulties with math.
they get frustrated and do not understand the problems.
If you compare them to the deaf that don't speak well
but they understand math.
While those who speak well do not understand math.
I tell them that they are different abilities.
There are hearing who are great at drawing.
While other have difficulty with math.
And because you do well in one area does not mean you will do well at everything.
They get angry.
What is the root of this confusion?
Long ago, Aristotle said that speech was
what made humans different than animals.
In other words, that a being that doesn't speak
cannot be intelligent.
It also implied that a being that doesn't speak
was like an animal,
which could not reason.
The word "logopedia"(speech therapy) comes from the word "logos".
In speech therapy the priority is to teach an individual to speak,
so that they can reason.
This is an Aristotelian deduction.
It is still used and applied.
It infers that if a person doesn't speak well
he or she is like an animal that is suffering.
And the speech therapist is there to enlighten them...
I have not analyzed it completely.
In other countries they call them "phonologists"
Which is a more adequate term.
In Spain the term "logo-pedagogue" is used
I would like to know the context in which this term was created.
If we start with the base of
"logos" means the ability to reason
and "pedagogue" means to teach.
Many logo-pedagogues conclude that
the deaf who do not speak
cannot reason.
This conclusion has consequences.
This is a devastating conclusion.
Because the deaf people who sign
do develop the ability to reason.
Sign language is speech and allows for the ability to reason.
And you still studied to become a speech therapist!!
In part out of need
but it was worth it.
When I got my teaching license
I looked for a job teaching deaf students.
They required that I have be a qualified speech therapist.
Even though I thought it was absurd since I am deaf,
I ended up studying speech therapy.
Some subjects such as the theory of language
and linguistics
I found interesting.
And I adapted the acquired knowledge
to the world of sign language.
Not all of it, just the basics.
As I worked with children
I checked my notes.
How long have you been working with deaf children?
For a while I gave private classes
to deaf kids, but I don't count those years.
I have been working in the public school system for 32 years.
I was a teacher at CREDA.
Which before was called FONO
but when I started
it became CREDA.
Yes, soon it will be 32 years.
You are the author of 3 books. Can you tell us about them?
"Speak to my eyes"
Is my first book.
It helped me to reflect.
It was like therapy for me.
I tried to explain what happened around me.
I had my ideas and memories mixed up.
It helped me to update.
Give order to my thoughts and memories.
It is an emotional book.
I learned a lot in the process.
The second book is fictional.
I tried to think like a teenager.
A 15 year old
who goes to high school.
I tried to understand who the character felt.
While studying the different subjects.
It is not based on personal experiences.
It is a deep reflexion
with the intention of creating a debate
regarding different situations.
For example, the case of
deaf people in prison.
Or what it is like to be a deaf woman.
It is a book for reflection that invites debate.
In the third book "Your memory in my hands",
I recalled my experiences
but in a positive manner.
As an adult woman
I found my inner child.
The woman I am helped the girl I was
to straighten out her memories.
The adult woman with more understanding
explained things to the girl which she had not understood.
I have her the vocabulary to better understand.
I gave her words
as tools for understanding.
I explained my behavior from a teacher's perspective.
It is a dialogue. I think differently now
compared to how I did. For example, take songs.
And how songs in sign language?
You cannot translate songs literally.
They need a special translation.
The intonation in spoken language and in sign language
are not the same.
When you translate following the original text
you lose the musicality of it.
However, the songs created
directly in sign language
even if they are inspired in spoken language
work better.
Some deaf people, particularly
if they have some hearing or wear implants
I used to hear and I enjoyed songs.
As I lost my hearing
I stopped understanding them and got nothing from them.
If the songs are written thinking of sign language
respecting the grammar and the musicality
What is linguistic deprivation?
The sign is this. But there is another one.
But for me the most exact one would be
to say someone is not given language.
Babies between 0 and 3 years
acquire language
naturally, it is not learned.
Through simple exposure to a language
in a rich context which allows them to relate concepts.
A 3 year old child is already a competent speaker
and by 6 years, they use adult structures to speak.
For example, if a person
even though they have good vision
has both eyes covered
until they are 3 years old
they brain is prepared to learn
naturally what they see around them
it is prepared to discriminate between shapes and colors
to understand the world.
However, if for the first 3 years, the child is deprived of vision
later the child won't know how to see..
The child would be blind even if their eyes work.
They would have to re-educate their eyes to see.
The neuronal connection is closed.
A new route would need to be found to see again.
It like the natural route
is blocked.
To unblock it, requires a lot of work.
It is a learning process based on repetition
and complementary information.
It require a lot of time.
It can be learned but not spontaneously
On the other hand a child that has learned language
naturally, by 6 years of age reflects
and asks age appropriate questions.
The 0-3 developmental stage is very important.
And during this stage
There are many cases of linguistic deprivation.
They suffer and learning is more difficult.
Even so, there are children who are capable of learning.
There are people who can teach these children.
They can drive
have a life, a home....
even though they were linguistically deprived.
It has two denominations in sign language.
Is it related to difficulties with reading and writing?
There are kids with reading difficulties.
In fact, most deaf people
do not assimilate language between 0 and 3 years
in a natural and complete manner
and it causes difficulties.
What does it mean to learn naturally and completely?
It is the result of a natural process
that a child lives (hearing or deaf)
who is constantly exposed to linguistic stimulation.
Their brans create the necessary linguistic connections.
If they cannot hear correctly, the circuits won't form correctly.
When there is full communication
the circuits develop correctly.
But full communication
is person to person. It is not a dialogue.
If you are not present for different conversations
If this doesn't happen, difficulties will occur
which can affect linguistic memory.
How can linguistic deprivation be avoided?
My advice is that children have access
to a complete language.
A child with hearing aids or an implant that does not work
should be with other signing deaf people.
Apart from talking to their parents,
the child must also receive information in sign language.
This way the child can "listen" to their environment.
And observe adult conversations.
If the child isn't interested in what the adults are talking about
it means the child cannot hear correctly.
And that they need sign language.
The child needs to see adults speaking in sign language.
So the child feels curious and learns from the adults.
Babies are curious about all that is said.
The little hearing that is there should be taken advantage of
but the child should also sign.
This way the child has access to sound and sign language.
If by 3 a child has oral speech, the child will speak
but will also have sign language as a resource.
The child can choose and their self-esteem increases.
What is a child according to your experience?
That is a funny question.
For me a child is neither good nor bad.
We cannot look at them this way.
A child wants to be seen.
To be watched and to be important to someone,
to be paid attention to.
Many children demand the attention of adults
and if they don't receive it, they will not be okay.
They will end up doing something to get that attention.
But this does not make them good or bad.
They seek attention to be watched.
It is the adult who judges them as good or bad
But the child isn't doing anything wrong.
Then they are judged as being "needy" or "bad"
And that is how they get labeled.
This situations are common.
For example, a child playing ball
knocks over a lamp.
And the adult quickly gets angry.
The child is scared but it is a new situation
and the child is curious to see what will happen if it happens again.
All children learn through repetition.
The child hits the lamp with the ball again.
And the adult appears. To the child it makes sense.
The child performs and action and the adult comes.
The child gets attention if they continue with this action.
And if the adult doesn't appear they will throw the ball farther,
until the adult comes to tell them off.
The child will stop for a bit.
But when bored the child will throw other things
out the window to get attention.
Sometimes the child gets labeled as a "bad kid".
In the beginning being bad doesn't have consequences.
Later when the child observes a different situation
and sees that someone says "your bad"
the child will relate it to their behavior.
And it will be reinforced.
Because of seeking attention.
Being good is associated with doing nothing.
And for a child that is very boring.
The more active and the more bored a child is
the more likely these behaviors will be repeated
and judged as bad.
If the situations changes
and the adult plays and communicates
with the child that was just trying to play ball
the child receives positive attention.
The child receives adult attention and a game is established.
If in the moment
the child tries to throw the ball outside
and the adult does not consider that correct
the best is that the adult picks up the ball
and keeps playing the game with the child
and redirects the situation.
Children need adults to interact with them
to reinforce their play and behavior.
The best is when a child is playing alone
an adult approaches and asks, "Are you playing alone?"
Speaks with the child and reinforces the behavior.
This way the child won't need to go to extremes
to get the adult's attention.
The child will get attention
without acting out.
This reinforces the good behavior
and the child learns a good attitude.
But this doesn't mean a child is good or bad.
The child wants to be seen by the adult.
And receive the needed attention.
Some are more active, others are calmer.
It seems like the calm ones are the good ones.
And the other more agressive.
But they are not good nor bad.
And people's personalities change.
A child might be very active due to diet
or because of family situations.
Is it correct to say they learn what they see?
Right! I haven't said that.
Children imitate.
If their parents normally
criticize them over everything,
the kids will do the same.
Many parents do not understand how children act, right?
It is true. There are even kids
that act in a way that seems like
they want their parents to hit them.
But really they just want attention,
to be observed.
It looks like they want
to get a whack.
But in reality
they just want adult attention.
Some parents say, "this child is so stubborn".
Parents want to do everything right.
But when they make a promise
and they don't keep it,
the child notices.
And is not happy.
It might appear like they forget about it.
But the next time they make a promise
the child will not respect it.
The child will not trust the adult because the child knows it isn't a fair game.
And the parents will think the child is very stubborn.
But adults
forget about rewards.
Or don't make promises you cannot keep.
Because then the children will not trust the adults.
To build trust
promises must be kept.
Do you have any advice for setting limits?
Setting limits is a very hard thing to do.
Limits with love.
If a child has a tantrum or fights with another.
the child needs to be told that this is not allowed.
That it is a rule.
The same happens when kids play.
And they do not want to share.
The adult intervenes and tells them they must share.
If the child continues there should be a consequence.
That does not mean you shout at the child.
But rather an emotional or physical restriction should occur.
Rules must be repeated until they are accepted.
The adult understand the childs anger.
The child forcefully resists.
That is why limits must be set
with firmness and sweetness.
In a different situation the child will remember
and understand the rules, taking turns, and sharing.
With gentleness the child will learn and accept the rules.
With small children limits are easy.
The notion of rules is important right?
Very important!
Parents and teachers must make rules clear.
They cannot be arbitrary.
Which is not the same as abusing authority.
The adult has controlled authority.
Authority to establish the rules.
And make the kids follow them.
The adults marks the limits of what is allowed.
And this limit is not to be crossed.
This is the figure of adult authority.
The adult also asks the child to respect the rules.
It is possible to make mistakes but you must respect children.
A rule like listening and not interrupting.
If an adult breaks the rule, they should ask forgiveness.
The child will imitate this and respect the rules and the adult.
Rules should be introduced correctly.
If the adult is authoritarian and arbitrary
children will be scared of the adult but not respect them.
This is not establishing a limit.
Establishing limits means making rules clear.
For yourself and others.
It is like a constitution.
Adults, we make mistakes...
It seems forbidden
that parents and adults make mistakes.
But it is not like that. We are not perfect.
We make mistakes just like kids.
If they see that adults
accept their mistakes
children will learn to accept them.
Some kids become very nervous
and won't accept them.
We must calm them, hug them, contain them.
And never laugh at them.
Because it makes them very angry. This is how I act.
How do you learn to educate? Some of us don't know how.
There are a lot of parent groups
Some are very conscious
because they learned in their families
or they've read or studied
Other replicate family traditions
as the right way and sacrifice themselves for their kids.
And then expect their children to do the same.
There are different way to raise kids.
Parents who sacrifice for their children
will also suffer consequences.
We need a public school for parents.
That employers give time
to their workers for parental education.
I think it should be like this.
Thank you so much Pepita! Anything else to add?
And I wish the Department of Education
would open its eyes and move.
Just as doctors got implants
they need to update
the resources, technologies, and speech therapists
and offer sign language.
We need all resources
without eliminating them, forbidding them or demonizing them.
The resources are complimentary.